Re: Game Talk (I'm putting this extra little bit here because the original title was too short)

[NebulaGregarZX]

I usually just make the grinding process as simple as possible - like using the stage I mentioned - and listen to music and do other stuff while I do it. That makes it feel less tedious. In fact, I was getting some done while posting my last couple of messages.

...And in the original game, there was no option for changing the BGM of anything, ever. So the Item World can be slightly more maddening in that respect.

As for single-target versus AoE... I prefer AoE attacks most of the time. The more enemies I can rip through in a single attack, the better. Single-target skills, for me, are mostly good for fighting powerful enemies, making sure a certain enemy goes down in one shot, and using weaker characters to deal with enemies above their level. With a good mage, you can destroy a great number of enemies at once, especially if they share a weakness, rather than forcing you to resort to Star magic.

[Haar_Dragon]

Having two Mages, I don't really use Star magic all that much. I tend to pick a magic that none of the enemies resist, and that the majority of them are weak against. My Galaxy Mage had a tendency to one-shot things before I reached Etna Mode, and now enemies are about 15-20 levels higher than me. She still does good damage.

Personally, I just like seeing the huge numbers from single-target spells. When I have a Mage alongside three physical units that can one-shot stuff, I don't really see the need to have AoE. It's kinda nice, but honestly, the moves I use most are Nightsever, Hurricane Slash, and Wind Cutter, at least as far as my swords go.

Now...is there a point to having Skull Mages? Like, at all? Because they seem geared toward Hit, and I don't ever see magic miss. And my Skull Mages tend to miss MORE in Disgaea 2 than my Ice Mage. So...why bother? Just for class unlocks?

[NebulaGregarZX]

Well, yeah. Magic can miss. Including healing magic. It's most apparent when dealing with a Ninja with a high Speed setup, but enemy attack spells can miss easily, and your own healing spells will miss a lot, too. But it's not worth it. Maybe if people are just uncomfortable with having girls in maid outfits running around setting things on fire, they have the option of using the more ominous and monstrous-looking Skulls.

[Haar_Dragon]

Yeah, but I think the ONLY thing I've ever seen a Mage miss was, in fact, a Ninja. And yeah, I noticed the heal-dodging in my failed run. It was annoying as hell.

That said, the only time I could see someone using a skull is the situation you described in which the player has a visual preference (though I personally prioritize practicality over appearance for the most part).

[Haar_Dragon]

So, question now. I currently have a female Wushu Master on my team. In getting an enemy kill with a future Thief (who is currently a Warrior so that he can learn Sword moves because I might maybe eventually at some point decide that I want items and/or want to fight the super-boss) I raised him to above level 20, unlocking the Ninja. Should I make my Wushu Master a Ninja, or just leave her? She currently knows Triple Strike, Tiger Charge, Lion's Roar, and King of Beasts, but has plenty of Mana to Transmigrate, and I don't think she's in danger of losing any of those moves, plus she's kinda low on Defense. Should I make her a Ninja and get the extra evade, or is it not worth reverting to Tier 1?

[NebulaGregarZX]

...Edgar, you answer this one. I don't know anything about the second game's mechanics. Just that the Skulls don't cover their faces, and do an annoying staff twirl before casting spells. And Majins got nerfed to hell. I don't even know what a Wushu Master IS. Otherwise, I'd answer myself.

I once saw a PS2 copy of Disgaea 2 at a store... but left it because I felt that it would be cowardly to start on another game in the series without beating the first one. And if I'd gotten it then, I'd have ended up playing it before finishing the first one at some point, I'm certain. ...And now I regret not getting it, because I dunno where the hell I would find a copy! Bah.

[Haar_Dragon]

That was a question about the first game... A Wushu Master is the fifth tier of the Martial Artist class.

And isn't Dark Hero Days on PSN?

[NebulaGregarZX]

Ah. In that case, it's probably worth it, so long as she Transmigrates into better Ninja classes as she goes. It drops her attack a bit, but having a Ninja on the team is pretty beneficial.

And for that, I'd need to ACCESS PSN. Which I can't.

[Zeldaman2.0]

So, question now. I currently have a female Wushu Master on my team. In getting an enemy kill with a future Thief (who is currently a Warrior so that he can learn Sword moves because I might maybe eventually at some point decide that I want items and/or want to fight the super-boss) I raised him to above level 20, unlocking the Ninja. Should I make my Wushu Master a Ninja, or just leave her? She currently knows Triple Strike, Tiger Charge, Lion's Roar, and King of Beasts, but has plenty of Mana to Transmigrate, and I don't think she's in danger of losing any of those moves, plus she's kinda low on Defense. Should I make her a Ninja and get the extra evade, or is it not worth reverting to Tier 1?

Given that I know jack diddly shit about D1, that still sounds like a good idea. Kunoichi (female Ninjas) in D2 got a critical state buff that let them ATTACK TWICE, and given their speed and generally high attack I'd say it's worth it, very much so. I had one that I used from about chapter three until the end of the game, and reincarnated her once or maybe twice. Had a mini-fanfic written about her, which ended prematurely because I wanted to write as I played but it was getting fairly ridiculous to keep up. My friend also purports that he can grind sufficiently well in the IW (good news, just talked with him and apparently he gets to just a high enough level to manage and then abuses elemental affinities, using a skull/mage or two and Adell), but for the life of me I've never seen him do it. Given the nature of the thing and the fact that the levels on enemies intensify horrendously is enough for me to nope out.

I WILL say this: Axel and some other monsters have the all-around stat boosters on them, which made my thief IMMEDIATELY useful. Using those and then grinding levels onto them once I progressed enough to handle them made my characters very useful.

I'd also like to point out that my final party for D2 typically is fairly small, and I don't reincarnate all that much. (Because Fighters with Axes.) My first time it was like 100 Adell, 90 something Roz, 90ish Yukimaru, 60 meat shield Taro, and a Lv90 something Green Skull. My latest was more like 90ish Adell, 80ish Thief, 80 or 90 Warrior, 90 Mage and maybe I had Yukimaru or Rozalin still. They all had decent items, and I will vouch until the day I die for a 3 Heavy Knight team and a Tink runner, with a backup team of 3 HK's and a fist user to use triple strike for moving gate guardians.

So yeah. Thieves are good, Trans if you wanna, and Magic Knights get super OP once they start really getting levels and lovers. The lover boosts and elemental residents alone, man. Just. Insanity.

[Haar_Dragon]

Duly noted. I've actually been naming my characters after a bunch of other stuff (For example, my Skull Mage is Yoshiya and my Ice Mage is Shiki, while my Kunoichi is called Sheena), just for fun. Though the Kunoichi seems to take a while to level up. And dies a lot...I think I know who's getting my next Muscle.

Just a note on the first game, there aren't critical-state buffs. But the first tier of Ninjas have crazy evade and three counters, so I've had a few times where he countered three times despite taking no damage.

Ehhh...I don't like pure walls, though. Or spears, I really don't like spears. Though I will most likely end up using a Thief now, I've been tempted a few times. Just need the additional Mana to make one.

[NebulaGregarZX]

Freaky... I named MY Ice Mage Shiki. Then I chose her to be Transmigrated into all the other Mage classes, then into a Cleric (Bishop). I renamed her Alberi, though.

I have a lot of redundant characters from when I didn't realize that Transmigration lets you switch classes, and I thought I had to create new units when I unlocked better classes. Now I'll probably just delete most of them... They're just taking up space, anyway.

Ha-HA! Got my Cleric, Archer, and Knight up to level 92, which means I'm not far at all from the Angel class...! I wonder, should I just Transmigrate my Knight and Archer, or leave the Archer alone unless I find a use for her, and just do it for the Knight? Because the way an Angel works is that she learns an elemental spell naturally, just like a Knight, and learns HEALING spells naturally, too. She's basically all three of the classes it takes to unlock her, all wrapped into one package with 100% aptitudes in all areas (and 110% in Res), and even superior to them in some ways, like actually having an A in Swords and Staves, unlike the Knight's B!

Soon, I'll have an Angel. And then I'll steamroll the final boss! And then... I think I'll Transmigrate ALL my characters, if possible. I'd like there to be SOME sense of challenge in my New Game Plus. I wonder just what carries over... if my Mana doesn't carry over, it would be a problem. I can't do the Transmigration BEFORE restarting, because then I'll have a bunch of Level 1 characters against the final boss. And training a whole reserve team would be absurd.

Hey! Edgar! Do you know just what carries over into a New Game Plus in the original Disgaea: Hour of Darkness?

[Haar_Dragon]

I know in my version, it brought over everything. Mana, level, weapon mastery, unlocked classes, the shop...the only thing that got reset was which bills I'd passed (which might be because I switched MCs). Not sure if that applies to the original, but in the PSP version, that was it. I can't see why they'd change what carries over, though.

Yeah, I actually checked the class-changing. I just thought, "This seems totally pointless unless you can change classes, too..." So I checked. I also checked with Laharl, just to see if I could make him a Prinny or something stupid like that, but of course, that didn't work. I wasn't really surprised, but I was mildly disappointed. Laharl would be the most OP Prinny ever.

I never really had a use for my Archer aside from being the only one able to effectively use bows. Their stats really aren't that great, and they need to be Tier 4 (I think) before they can move properly, as well. Then again, I don't really like having redundant characters, like having two Angels, but that's just me.

Random thought. What exactly are the characters in your army before you add them? It says "create," but that would imply that every demon has the power of creation. The pairs are referred to as Master and Pupil, rather than parents, which seems to suggest otherwise. And I find it hard to believe that demons could create Angels and humans. So, are your units just random wandering demons that you happen to recruit? What I want to know is why this is so interesting to me. I might just have to write up a story and/or theory about that.

[NebulaGregarZX]

I figured it might be changed because when I Transmigrated, I lost all my Mana. I consider that a rest of sorts. I consider New Game Plus to be a more firm sort of reset, and in a lot of games, you lose things lime money, levels, learned skills, items and equipment... but sometimes, you keep things. Look at KH3D: you keep all your Dream Eaters and their Friendship levels, and your Recipes, but lose all your Commands, Abilities, levels, Dream Eater levels, Link Points, items, pretty much everything. Oh, but you get to re-watch any cutscene, so that's a plus. As for Chrono Trigger, you keep everything except for your money and plot-specific things like the Masamune and Hero's Badge.

Laharl as a Prinny? ...Er, um, uh...

...Dammit! There's no way to respond to that without spoiling SOMETHING! I'll give you the one bit that doesn't spoil anything from the main games, though: he appears as a Prinny in a spinoff game called Prinny: Can I Really Be The Hero? As an optional boss, then a playable character.

That's because Bows are the least useful weapon type. Guns are better, not having to rely on Attack - thus freeing you up to concentrate on Hit - and get much better skills. Plus, Scouts are useful for other things. Archers are NOT. Bows suck, so Archers suck, as they can only effectively use those to fight. They're only worth it to unlock the Angel class.

As for that... well, I hear you actually get a little scene in later games showing how you recruited new characters. In one case, they take a demon and forcibly roboticize them. I dunno the details, as I've never seen anything like that myself, but I assume they're recruiting these guys from somewhere. The Netherworld must have demons coming out of the woodwork, considering how many you slaughter constantly. As for angels, D2 implies that they sometimes travel to the Netherworld for various, trivial reasons, like tourism. It's not out of the question to assume that Laharl could ask one to join his army.

But it does bring up interesting questions about Transmigration. You can change a Prinny into a proper demon into an angel and back. What are the direct implications of this?

[Haar_Dragon]

Well, it's stated that Prinnies are human souls, and that the penguin thing is just a shell. So... o_O

I often wonder about stupid things like that. For example, is Transmigration voluntary, or does Laharl (as controlled by the player) order them to do it? If the latter, how would someone react to being told to Transmigrate, considering several of the classes are gender-exclusive? Like, "Female Warrior, become a Thief" or "Ninja, become an Archer" or "Male Brawler, become a Samurai" or other such things. If the former, such things become even stranger, so I'm inclined to think otherwise, but still. Again, I'll have to come up with a theory on that. And write something centered on it.

I know about the Prinny game, though...Prinny Laharl? That's a bit surprising. The only thing I can think of is the Fake Laharl Prinny in Etna Mode. And I know the bit you're talking about. I know more than I let on, and I found most of it by accident.

[NebulaGregarZX]

Not just that, you can even use Transmigrate just to switch genders if the class has a male and female type. Not just gender-exclusive classes.

Yeah, so it's either something that will require a lot of thought, or it's something that's not worth thinking about. Perhaps it has to do directly with Mana? Maybe Mana is a kind of energy that can bypass normal Reincarnation processes and activate a faster version called Transmigration, but it has limited effect on persons who are particularly anchored to their identity? It would half-explain why most Prinnies don't just use Transmigration; they're just not strong enough to kill the enemies they would need to gather Mana. Plus, it would be more of a form-change, it wouldn't cleanse their sins, and they would just be stuck as demons (or possibly angels) forever. And STILL working for Laharl.

[Zeldaman2.0]

Though the Kunoichi seems to take a while to level up. And dies a lot...I think I know who's getting my next Muscle.

Or spears, I really don't like spears. Though I will most likely end up using a Thief now, I've been tempted a few times. Just need the additional Mana to make one.

That was actually the premise of the story: she always died especially because latecomer status, and Adell was always her get out of jail free card. This was going to have her develop a crush on him before plot plot plot and just...

Anywho. No, I've never played the original D1, but I plan to at some point through emulation. If not that, then the DS or PSP version or something. I also need to get a hold of D3, D4, the Disgaea 1 sequel, and the Laharl murder mystery one. That last one isn't spoilers, it says pretty much on the back of the box: "Laharl's dead. Fix it."

Speaking of Weapon Mastery! The letter only shows how /fast/ a character gets ranks with that weapon class. Ergo, Thieves /can/ use fists and swords, but their aptitudes are a little low the first few ranks. I know they get higher later on, but I don't recall right at this moment how high they go and how quickly. It /is/, however, worth it. You can fix this for training/leveling purposes if you have some spare Armsmasters and, optionally, a Weapon Mastery Scroll. I will say that if you want to get a character to high levels and make it easier for them to /function/, give them a maxed 1900 armsmaster in a weapon of their choice, preferably a low-rank Legendary, though not really necessary, pass as many counter bills as the character and weapon allow, and then go nuts on a Reverse Damage panel. For levels, make this a Sword/Fist, depending on what you wanna use/their aptitudes. For skills and overall weapon competency, make it their weapon of choice.

Spears and Guns suck ass. Sure, Guns are powerful. At first. But then you figure out that they blow chunks at actually being effective at grinding. And thus, to me, are less efficient. Like in my opinion, the overall hierarchy goes something like

Swords
Magic/Staffs
Fists
Axes
Guns
Bows
Spears

with Axes being as high as they are merely for the raw damage output. They suck at hitting, I'll concede that, but good lord are they good at making minced demons. This is only preference though, and I give anything other than Swords and Magic a bad rep is because of either A) Low AoE (guns and bows and Axes) or B) Dual Stats (Bows, fists). Fists have enough AoE to override the Dual Stat nature, Axes are fairly decent for very little actual AoE, and Guns are just barely useable in my eyes because HIT is so good the first cycle or two. Bows suffer from Dual Stat AND Bad AoE, and Spears have such bad AoE and user movement that I just don't ever use them.

Actually, the "humanoids" you recruit are actually demons that are in human form. The plot of Disgaea 2: Cursed Memories confused this for me pretty heavily for a little while, because to me "monster" and "demon" was synonymous. In actuality, it's more of a "All Monsters are Demons, but not all Demons are Monsters" type deal, in that it's pretty much just form. I also elaborated slightly on this in my short story, saying that the purple "souls" that pop up after you beat an ally/enemy are their "essence", and this "essence" is moldable. This is how slain party members are resurrected in Hospitals, and how the Dark Assembly creates new characters or performs Reincarnation/Transmigration: they have specialists that can forcibly mold this essence, and change its properties. However, this essence can be changed outside of their control, which is how Sins and the accumulative level bonuses accrue.

Also, demons aren't judged by our own standards. They literally "fine" you and praise/condemn you with the Sin system for being too badass. That's literally the first thing that should come to mind. They provide massive incentives for becoming the strongest.

Also, I forgot to say this, but there's no way in hell Majin are that good. I tried doing one once, and it didn't turn out the best: low move speed and a Lv 1 character on a NG+? *cringe*

[NebulaGregarZX]

Erm, about calling them "D1" and such... since the sequel is called "D2", what would you abbreviate it as? "DD2", just to make it distinct?

Etna with a spear has been able to kick about as much ass as Laharl, with slight modification. The option to attack from a slight distance to avoid counters - since Etna has a default Counter rate of 1, which sucks - is useful, too.

That's Disgaea Infinite. I hear that Mao from 3 makes an appearance in it.

Oh? Majins were nerfed after the first game. HELLISHLY. They had the BEST Move range in the first game, their higher-tier versions defaulting to 7 Move. They were broken as hell. Then NIS realized how broken they were, and toned them down until they were goddamn useless. In Hour of Darkness and Afternoon of Darkness, they were the best unit, hands down. If they had any disadvantage, it was that they didn't naturally learn magic or anything, but whatever.

[Haar_Dragon]

I believe Majins in the first game have S in everything and 110% aptitudes all around. Though the seem decent in 2.

Yes, Mao does appear in Disgaea Infinite. He's a delivery-boy who screws around with the packages.

[Zeldaman2.0]

Like, I would love to use a Majin. If it didn't mean strapping an Accelerator on him. =__=

And yeah, I kinda figured it out so I'll just call them Disgaea 2 and 3, etc from now on. And D2 will stay D2.

[NebulaGregarZX]

...Seriously. Play the first game and find out. ...Er, uh, in Disagea 2, what are the requirements to unlock the Majin, anyway? Are they any less painful? I heard that it takes five or six specific classes, all male, leveled 200, all at the same time to unlock. How 'bout the second game?

And it stands for "Dimension 2", in case that wasn't clear. Because it wasn't.

Just how much have you guys played the games? 0_o It's kind of mind-boggling to think that anybody could ever reach Level 9999... so it's hard to me to comprehend somebody I know, even over the internet, achieving anything like that.

[Zeldaman2.0]

Majins? I thought you played this game... In any case, it was beat Final Boss (leaving it as such because spoilers), get any ending and start cycle 2. On Cycle 2+, Adell must be Senator (I think? Maybe?) and pass the "Create The Strongest Fighter" Bill, which will have you at a bad disadvantage if you don't have the Wood Golems back up in voice and still liking you.

Speaking of NG+, literally everything but story characters carry over. And Senator status.

And Adell's title.

[NebulaGregarZX]

As I said, I failed to acquire a copy of Disgaea 2, as I let my only opportunity pass in order to properly respect the first game. By crushing its story mode. So, Majin are easier to make in the second game, huh...?

And as for Adell's title, since one ending grants him a title that he hates so much that he GIVES UP RIGHT THERE, yeah, it makes sense. Of course, that ending exists mostly because you broke the story sequence and sent it off the rails.

[Haar_Dragon]

I'm in Chapter 9 of Disgaea 2, played some of Infinite, beat the first game, played most of Etna mode, then realized it's REALLY unfriendly toward Transmigration and went back to my cleared file to do some grinding there.

Also, I don't think it's "cowardly" to buy the sequel without finishing the original. Play it, I could see where you're coming from, but just buy it? Mostly just a missed opportunity. I bought most of the Phoenix Wright games before I finished the first. Trials and Tribulations is still waiting to be beaten, meaning Apollo Justice is just kinda sitting on a shelf. But it's okay because I don't have to look for them later.

I believe in the first game, unlocking Majins required Scout, Thief, Male Brawler, and Male Warrior at level 200. Fun fact, Thieves were female in the original release (in Japan), so while Nebula is technically right, the Japanese version would refute that. But none of us play that version so bleh.

[Zeldaman2.0]

Oh you're in Chapter 9, eh? What do you think of the story so far? And if you need to grind, stick to 9-2. It gets REALLY good once you can level up the Magic Knights to 99 using SE Bills, because a glitch in the game's coding makes that number REALLY good for killing enemies for some reason. I will also say, farming for Sins while trolling through the IW is also a good idea, because you can put them on other equips and grind that equip up to be really good, considering. #FriendlyMentorAndCompletelyIgnorableAdvice

Completely random side note: My introduction to Disgaea was literally in reverse, as my friend was on his second cycle or something and was on Chapter 13, and started from there showing me the game. However, he DID manage to skip the spoiler of the last chapter, so that was nice. He finished up the game, all that plot happened, and then showed me the first two chapters. Unorthodox? Yes. Did it hook me? Undeniably so.

I'll hop on later, now that I have my laptop back, and I'll see if I was still somewhat close to beating the game the first time and see how my party looked. I do remember I was farming for Accelerators, though...

[NebulaGregarZX]

I lack your ability to stay away from playing a game in my possession when I want to play it. If I hit a wall in Disgaea, I knew I would want to switch to Disgaea 2. Hell, it's how I beat Kingdom Hearts II before the first game, since II had fewer places where I could get stuck. Of course, that was back when I still didn't know how to play video games, and I never DID hit a wall in Disgaea except for the final boss, who I've already attained MORE than enough power to overcome (got my Angel, and she's already kicking plenty of ass at such a low level).

So... it was an attempt to avoid the opportunity to do anything stupid. I didn't trust my own sense of judgment enough. Which makes no sense, honestly, but this would have been back during the GameFAQs days. I was still very stupid back then.

...Thieves? Female? That's hilarious when you think about their voice clips in the English version. "ShaZAM!" "Whodaman!?" ...Though I can see that being the case.

...And did you guys know THIS interesting tidbit?! >_< You CANNOT turn off the animations in the original PS2 game! Goddammit! I know it's possible in the PSP version, and I bet they included this feature in the original Disgaea 2...

[Sponsored content]